Perhaps first of all a question concerning the definition: The expression coined by you, “the orders of love”, what does this mean?

Order is that according to which something develops. A tree for instance develops according to an order. Otherwise it will not be a tree any longer. And yet every tree is different. Order isn’t something static. It is a living principle.
Love, of course, means here the relationship between humans. It also succeeds according to certain orders. When we know about these orders, our relationships succeed better.

 

How do you know which orders are given to us? 

I do not know them in the sense that one can think about them and then one has them. This is not possible. These orders reveal themselves. I’ll go back to the example of the trees. The appearance of the tree shows according to which order it grows. Thus a fir tree grows differently than an oak. They follow different orders. I can see these orders and distinguish among them. It is similar with human relationships. When they heed certain orders love fares better.

 

The community of fate

You have also described the family as a community of fate. What does that mean?

Our fate is also destined through our family, through the parents we have, for one thing. We cannot have other parents than the ones we have. With this our fate is already defined to a large extent, this means the options we have and the limits that are set for us.

This is the smaller part. We are also defined through the fates that occurred in our family. A suicide in our family will have an effect in coming generations. How do we know that? Can we simply know that? No. But we can often see that it is so.

Once I saw a really terrible example of this. A lawyer found out that in the last 100 years three men committed suicide at the age of 27, on the 31^st December. This is strange to put it mildly. It was their fate. 

Then the lawyer started to research the matter. Who was the first one to die at age 27, December 31^st? It was the first husband of the great-grandmother. He was obviously murdered. Now there were these three men who had no part in this, but they were entangled in this fate, and consequently they killed themselves. They died like the murdered man, age 27, December 31^st. None of them could escape this. Later, the lawyer thought of his cousin, who was 27 years old as the 31^st of December closed in. The lawyer went to see him. The cousin had already bought himself a pistol.

 

That’s spooky.

It is.  

 

But this means that my family system, my family, has a huge influence on my health?

Of course.

 

How?

Several powers are at work in a family that have a say in our fate. They are largely unconscious. Some of them have to do with the child’s deep loyalty to the family.

I’ll give you an example, this time not quite as spooky, but still. I had been invited as a guest therapist to a group in America. There was a woman in the group who said she would get divorced from her husband. Until that point she had been happily married. People wanted to talk her out of it, but nothing worked. Then I asked her: “How old are you now?” to which she replied, “35.” I probed further, “What happened to your mother when she was 35?” She answered, “ She lost her husband.” Her father had died on an aircraft carrier as he saved others when a fire broke out. I said to her: “A good girl in this family loses her husband at age 35”. Here her deep loyalty to her mother was revealed. To this point she had not been aware of it.

 

Objections

Well, this leads me to surmise or at least to ask: Can’t it be a coincidence?

Well, of course it can be. But what does that change? What matters is that I find a solution. I can come up with an objection against anything. Perhaps I feel strong then, even superior. But perhaps my objection has destroyed something. I must ask myself, did my objection help, or does my objection work like a curse for this person, hindering her from finding a solution?

This woman could reorient herself upon hearing this. If someone had said, “This could be a coincidence,” would that have gotten her anywhere?

 

Reality

But can’t a solution that becomes visible in a constellation also work like a curse? When I say: “Oh God, this is my fate,” and a small voice inside says, “And what if it isn’t?”

The solution that shows up sometimes reveals that it does not work that way. The strange thing is, however, when the reality comes to light in all earnest, and we face it, a path becomes visible, on the basis of this reality. But the path does not come from outside, not from the helper or therapist, it comes from inside. This is then a movement of the soul. But when I think, “Oh God, what have I done now,” I interfere in something as if I could prevent or change something through my objection or through my fear. Reality works on its own accord, I do not need to meddle.

 

But is it not so that you do intervene? It is your perspective of reality that is imparted by you sentences. Of course it takes a lot of experience to perceive something at all, but I ask myself, does another constellator perhaps see quite another reality? How do you arrive at saying: This one reality appears to me now, and that is the reality?

The reality comes to light through the constellation. It is not my perspective. My perspective depends on what I see, on what all others see as well, and especially what the clients see in the representatives and their reactions. If I were following my perspective, it would be dangerous. But if I see what is, and I share that, and all others see it at the same time, then it is not a personal perspective any longer. It is a reality that has come to light. It is a reality that suddenly comes to light, out of the darkness.

 

Farewell

What happens to a client when he cannot accept the solution that perhaps shows itself?

This happens often for there is a conflict in the soul of the client. One can see with many clients, if their fate is heavy ‒ for instance, if they are ill ‒ they feel innocent. Sometimes they smile when they talk about their illness. The solution frightens them, for through the solution they separate from their family.

I will give you an example. In a course someone said he would like to set up his present family. I said, “Set up your family of origin.” He said, “I have none. I was given away as a child in Holland, because my parents were Jewish. I was taken to Switzerland and I was adopted there. All I know about my parents is that they perished.”

We set this up. He chose a Jew for his representative, without knowing he was Jewish. He turned the representatives of the parents around to face away.

His representative was instantly shaken deeply, deeply moved. Then I exchanged him instantly for the client himself, and I turned his parents around. He went to his parents very slowly, and then the three embraced and were deeply moved.

After a year I met a friend of mine, also Jewish, and I asked him if he had heard anything of this man.  He said: “Yes, I rang him recently. He was very angry with you and didn’t want to know about the course any more.”

What happened? This man is not allowed to be better off than his parents. Therefore success depends on whether something towards solution moves in the soul. But this demands a departure. The child must say farewell, and this is a very great achievement. Not everyone can do it. But when he remains in the problem he is not unhappy.  It appears painful to those round him, but not for him. He feels at home as a child, embedded in the fates of his family. 

 

Courage

Sometimes one has the impression in some of your constellations – and you also hear about this constantly, I know – that you pass hard judgments over others. That was strong yesterday. I really noticed that suddenly you said in the constellation: “You can all see, she won’t make it, she wants to die”. This sounds like death sentence to me. Do you only pronounce them as a medium, or how do you arrive at such harsh judgments?

It was plain to see that it is so. The woman went to her dead husband and lay down next to him. It was perfectly clear that this was a movement drawing her into death. I only said out loud what was plain for everyone to see. That’s the difference.

Some therapists fear to say what they see. When they cover it up they feel relieved, because now they don’t have to take any responsibility. But the client doesn’t trust them any more, because they were cowards, too cowardly to look at the reality of the situation.

The moment the truth has been said out loud, something can change. Where the truth is covered, nothing can change. But facing reality in earnest allows a motion to set in that allows solutions. But not before. Solutions can only be found on the basis of reality.

 

Objections

Why don’t you tolerate objections?

I constantly tolerate objections.

 

Within a constellation?

Within a constellation I must see to it that reality is respected. An objection is for instance: “This can be coincidental.”
What is left then?
I protect the process from this kind of objection. Of course, I am open to what my colleagues perceive, for instance, when they tell me: “You overlooked something here, one could have also done something else.” That’s an exchange. Then we do something together. We look at what we have seen, learning from each other and correcting each other. These are objections that
are constructive.

 

Responsibility

You have very many students about whom you say that they are not your students. I’ll say it differently: In every town in Germany you can open a town guide and find advertising that reads “Family constellations according to Bert Hellinger.” It’s also usually in this form. This means that your name always turns up. What do you think about that? Does it please you?

I don’t take any notice. The moment I bother with it I become a larger-than-life father figure. Then I turn the others into children and take on responsibility for them. Where would that get me?

 

But there are also constellations that have caused people severe problems, and where people ask themselves whether it was perhaps because of the therapist.

A therapist cannot harm anyone. How is that possible except where the other one wants it that way? But how would I be able to harm someone?

 

Through the way you lead, for it’s a fact that you lead in such a constellation.

I observe the signs closely, and I go with what shows. Of course, I take responsibility for the process. A part of my responsibility is that I do not allow outer disturbances, like, for instance, someone else suddenly saying: “You have to do it like that and that.” In this way the person wants to take over the leadership, without wanting to take on the responsibility. Then I come in with a firm hand. But otherwise the client remains responsible for himself.

But often the client comes to the therapist with the expectation of a child, saying, “You need to do something for me.” When the therapist doesn’t do it, the client gets angry. The client’s revenge takes the form of saying, “It did not help me.” This is part of the revenge, the revenge of a disappointed child. Parents know this, and that does not make them bad parents. The client is completely free. He or she can say any time: “This is not right for me.” Full stop. Nobody forces clients to go into a certain direction.

 

Group dynamics

But don’t you play down the effect of such a group a little bit? This is the kind of group that has a tremendous effect. One knows this from processes in group dynamics.

One can see that when people get involved in such a group they are not quite so autonomous and so responsible and so mature as you describe it right now. Instead, one naturally wants to be loved in such a group. When you withdraw your love from me in a confrontation – this is how I experience it at that moment – I am no longer fully in control of myself, or as autonomous or responsible as you would like me to be.

I began as a group dynamics facilitator, and I am familiar with group dynamics. I can also apply them if I want to, for the benefit of control, or for freedom. In the processes in my groups I do not allow anyone to influence others. This prevents the development of a group in which a shared resistance or a shared group atmosphere takes shape.

When I work in a small group, I use the method of the round. This means, going round in the circle and inviting everyone to say what is going on inside. And nobody else is allowed to say anything in reply. So the person who speaks remains autonomous. Whatever people say, there is neither praise nor reproach, and there are no objections either. When the round is finished, everyone remains present as an individual. Participants are not group members in the sense that they can come under pressure. But for the very fact that the individuals were able to show themselves as they wished, a group atmosphere of mutual respect can develop. This is a big difference. 

 

The result

How do you know you have a solution? You say, “Everybody can see that.” I don’t quite believe you that everyone else sees it. I believe Bert Hellinger does see more things than others. When you say, “What is happening is clear to everyone,” well, I have my doubts.

There is yet another difference. I am not seeking a solution. I let something come to light. What has been brought to light points towards a solution. This is a new mode of family constellations. In this approach I am waiting for what moves in the representatives. When I see something has been set into motion that leads further, I pause. I don’t need to know either how it will continue. I am not seeking a solution. What I focus on now is whether or not the client is in contact with the reality that has shown up.

 

Perception

When you describe sometimes that out of the blue a reality has shown up I wonder if you experience yourself as a kind of medium. Who is it who brings this to light? You say all of them have seen it, but still, you as the therapist bring it to light.

Here we need to keep something in mind. Everything happens through representatives. We can observe that the representatives suddenly feel like the persons they represent. So they are in connection with something greater and in this field they feel something. When I lead something like this, I am also in connection with this field. I receive information from there, for as along as I expose myself. I go with this information. But if I think, “What do I have to do now?” then I am no longer in contact with this field. This contact is only possible through utmost containment. Exactly because I do not have any special intention or wishes, I am in contact with something greater, and I am being led therefore.

 

By what?

By this greater something. We can say by this field – some call it a field. I call it a shared soul. Plato already knew that to make communication possible at all, for instance, between you and me, something has to be in between us for me to understand you at all. He calls this soul.

 

Sometimes you speak of something for which you use a number of terms. I took some notes: the encompassing ultimate, the great model, the greater whole. It is obviously something that is hard to describe. But what do you mean?

I don’t mean anything. It is quite clear that we come to limits of our comprehension, but here we have a sense, there is something else that is at work. But we cannot grasp it.

 

The effect

How do you explain yourself? I know your answer, but I just ask anyway. How do you explain the attraction that your method has for so many people all over the world?

I go to do a course, and people are coming and want to work with me. I see them. The others who are also there, I don’t see. I am in a field. When the course is over, I withdraw. What was seen and also what was experienced – for many are joining the inner process very deeply – this is what works. Not me. I grab my hat and take the train home.

 

What fascinates people so much about it? Is it the topic of family?

I don’t think about that. If I did, I would not be in tune with myself and more.

 

But one can ask: What concerns you? Why do you go through so much trouble? Why do you travel all over the planet to do this? Are you a healer? Are you a master? Yes, you are Bert Hellinger. But what is your motivation to do all this?

I can see that people get something out of it, and I enjoy that. That’s all. I enjoy doing it.

 

What about it do you enjoy?

The success ‒ the sudden change on the faces, the relief, the sense of freedom. That does give me joy. There is no reward more beautiful than this.

 

Basic patterns

Back to your critics once more. What really irritates so many is that you have found orders in your many years of work, and then you say, “I can’t do anything about it. That’s the way they are.” That raises objections and people say that these orders can be changed.

Exactly.

 

We change them.

Yes, that’s what I say too.

 

How can Bert Hellinger say then: “This is how the order is. This is how I understood it.”

That’s how the order is in this situation. You clearly see the effect. If people generalize, that’s their business. I do not generalize. I remain with the situation at hand.

But there are certain patterns that showed up clearly. Then I say that out loud: This is a pattern. But when I do a constellation, I suddenly do something completely different, even against this pattern, because it shows up that something is different in this situation. Then some say to me: One can’t rely on you. And that’s true.

 

Okay, but these patterns do exist. Sometimes when an exception begins, one gets an inkling: Aha, this will take this direction. What are the basic patterns? There are quite a few. Are there some classic patterns that you are specifically aware of?

There are certain basic patterns that serve as a rough guide. When I look at these patterns while I am working, I lose touch with the reality as it shows this moment. So I must not look at the patterns. Sometimes I think: Well, according to this pattern, it would have to be such and such. When I catch myself thinking this way, I hold back instantly, for otherwise I am no longer in contact with what goes on. Then I wait a while. Suddenly I realize it is taking a completely different direction.

 

The soul

Something about the concept of soul that you use. This is a language we usually know from philosophy or from theology. In traditional psychotherapy one would probably be cautious about using the concept.

That’s generally the case with such concepts, very much so.

 

That’s a complaint people have. Please be so kind as to define what you mean by that. Or will you smile and say: This can’t be defined?

I can define it, not in the sense that I identify it precisely, but one can describe the soul through the effect it has.

Wherever we see the soul at work, it has two basic functions. First, it unites something. Our body, for instance, is held together by a power that coordinates all the bodily functions. One wonders what kind of power that is. It is the soul.

Second, the soul steers us into a definite direction. But the soul is not limited to our body or to us as an individual. The family also has a soul. Therefore the family members all respond according to defined laws that are set by the soul. Entanglements and communities of fate only exist for that reason. These family members have a common soul. And beyond that there are larger connections still.

So, there is something that has an effect. I call it the soul. But I am not saying I know what it is. Yet I haven’t found a better name. Well, in China, I found a better one: the Dao.

The Dao is a power that directs and controls everything. And here, too, in the Dao de Ching, the essential book, attributed to Lao Tse, it says: the Dao that can be named is not the Dao. But everyone senses that there is such a power. The word Dao is more general and eschews the grasp of definition more easily than the word soul. In China I use the word Dao. It is closest to me anyhow.

 

In the service of life

Are the important things about family constellations according to Bert Hellinger related to psychotherapy, or matters of faith, or with a basic attitude that is nearly religious?

Neither.

 

What else then?

Many come to family constellations even though they are not ill. For them family constellations have nothing to do with illness or with psychotherapy. And they are not psychologically disturbed people. They are people whose path in life has come to a standstill in some aspects. This is a generally human matter.

Now one searches for a way out perhaps, and a solution. In this regard family constellations are closer to philosophy. It is a knowing about life.

 

Gained from observation?

Gained from observation. That’s why I don’t feel I’m a psychotherapist.

 

But?

Someone who serves life.